Interview by Ines Meštrović
Bestbook, December 1, 2023.
(The interview was published under the title “Our Twentieth Century – Bosnian, Croatian, Yugoslav – is an inexhaustible dark pandemonium. The sentence from which it was taken also has a continuation: “and a shining panopticon.”)
I would like to start by clearing up a doubt. I read somewhere that it’s a brilliant novel about a father, autofiction, a historical novel, a Bildungsroman, a family chronicle, etc. Isn’t every truly good novel with autobiographical elements, like yours, a bit of all that? What aspects were most significant to you while writing, and who is the phantom in the novel – the father or the war?
– Probably everything you listed is true. But it’s not up to the author to interpret his text. I can only express my belief that every mature literary text is a new, virtual reality, no matter how much it relies on or doesn’t rely on any kind of factual basis. The phantom in the novel is primarily the figure of the father, but also somewhat the one living in the shadow of the phantom. And if the phantom is a ghost, an unreal and non-physical phenomenon, what is its shadow: a double phantom?
The character whose story we follow in the novel, the owner or heir of memories, is named Josip Jablanović, and the place where he grows up is only mentioned as V. This in itself suggests a departure from reality. Like laurel, the poplar is a tree associated with numerous associations. You didn’t choose that surname randomly, just like many other details in the novel, did you?
– You noticed that V. very well. And that is a phantom moment, a place neither in heaven nor on earth, existing only in this book. Jablanović, where does the surname come from? In the remnants of failed family memories, a postcard from the 1930s was preserved: the priest from Ključ, Don Stjepan Lovrenović, whom everyone called Uncle, writes to the priest in Ovčarevo near Travnik, Fra Rudolf Jablanović, addressing him as dear uncle. It’s not unimportant what he writes to him: “I’m sending you a night photo of my distillery; see that I remembered you then.” (Pecara – a distillery.) There you have indications, enough for a new novel, or at least a good story. Everything else with that name, with those names, with those family names, with the names of those dear little places, can be interpreted in many ways, each of them credible. This is Bosnia, Catholic and Croatian, until recently. The political commissars of the new Croatian identity in Bosnia, mutilated and crippled, Tudjmanized, don’t know what to do with it, so they disown it, make fun of it. They don’t know, cultural cowards and herostrates, that in doing so, they erase the most interesting civilizational nuance of their own tradition and identity, for the love of a cold, non-native, violently unified Croatdom.
How important is the rearrangement, sorting, and filtering of one’s own history for a person’s identity and for the identity of a nation? What makes up identity?
– It’s too easy to forget, and we have forgotten for too long, that the identity of a nation consists of all the historical baggage, in which – alongside everything else, dear and desirable – we carry the dark, undesirable legacy of our own Cainesque evils. It takes great strength to accept and become aware of it as our own. But without that strength, greater than any heroism, without the firmness of the ethos that develops from it, there is no liberation. Only living in the perpetuation of miserable lies about ourselves, which then periodically surface in collective manifestations of new evil. I’m talking about the Croatian case because it is closest to me and concerns me the most, but in this, there is complete equality among all Bosnian peoples, true brotherhood and unity.
What do we learn about Ivan Jablanović from the list of his books (inserted exactly in the middle of the novel) and his literary preferences (Matoš, Kranjčević, Ujević, Andrić, etc.) and philosophical texts from which he copied some excerpts?
– What can we learn about a person from the books he acquired and read? This is also asked by the voice of the heir of memories in the novel, searching for an answer and not finding it. The list of Jablanović’s books and quoted authors is very diverse. As if from a distance, it only suggests that he is an eclectic, a lover of books and literature in general, with broadly dispersed affinities. A typical Croatian cosmopolitan, a bourgeois intellectual, a decent man and an upright citizen. Such a history has easily and willingly harnessed for its bloody, senseless campaigns. There is no right or wrong in it, good or bad sides; it is all blind, contingent. A machine for grinding human existences and family destinies, to which we later load meanings, judge, and pass sentences voluntaristically.
Memories of Grandfather Matija Banić and childhood in Bosnia are personally my favorite part of the novel; they are full of warmth, relying on memory, vivid images, while Zagreb, the place of birth and later education, is described more factually. There are many facts unknown even to the Purgers (people from Zagreb), but there is less emotion?
– None of that is intentional. In the life of Josip Jablanović V. and Zagreb are the most important cities, for better or worse. His only true cities. It is true that, in his fundamental, unchanging feeling, he is always a stranger in them, but intimately, fatefully, in a completely different way than in all other places of his life.
Writing history is a kind of palimpsest. This can be said for your entire cycle of related novels (Liber Memorabilium, Lost in the Century, In the Shadow of Phantoms) on a related theme that you return to every ten years. Has the temporal distance allowed you to gain a new perspective? What still intrigues you in this story that spans a whole century and, along with it, a family chronicle, but remains unfinished?
– I would gladly distance myself from that theme, indeed, but it won’t distance itself from me. Our twentieth century – Bosnian, Croatian, Yugoslav – is an inexhaustible dark pandemonium and a shining panopticon, and volumes of books and reams of paper, not to mention head and talent, would have to be seriously and credibly spoken about it in literary form. I have two manuscripts open, unfinished, and seven others in my head, where they will probably remain. As long as they are not written, it is unacceptable for me to publicly speak about their motives.
The boy who delivers photos embellished, colored, and printed based on small photos from documents seems to me a convenient metaphor for the act of writing a novel. Like him, to get a complete picture, you had to visit several addresses or cities
, or, as you say in one place in the novel, to hear many voices. A parallel can also be drawn with making memory, not just remembering. How much is fiction and how much is facts, as well as work on documenting this extensive novel?
– The boy is a skillful artisan, someone who organizes his own survival by giving others what they desire, embellished and colored reality, without asking too much or too little. In a word, a clever little man, a trait of his people. In my work on the novel, I was guided by a kind of little man’s shrewdness. I started as early as the seventies of the last century, and worked on it for a full five decades. I traveled everywhere, met people, searched for documents, listened to people, asked, read, and wrote, wrote, wrote. That is how it came to be what it is. And I still don’t know if it is fiction or facts. I would rather leave it to those who can and want to read to decide. It is clear to me that in writing such novels, the novelist must not only enjoy great confidence in the authenticity of what he writes but also the courage and modesty to admit that his interpretation of all this is only one of many possible ones. Every great novel consists of truths and untruths, of truths that are not better and untruths that are not worse. And in the end, the least important thing is the private life of the author, because it should disappear from the text as a mole that has fulfilled its purpose.
Family Chronicle
Josip Jablanović’s family can be divided into two branches: the Jablanovićs from V. and the Matijanićs from Zagreb. The novel spans several generations, with a particular focus on the period from the early 20th century to the end of the 20th century. Here is a brief overview of key family members:
1. **Matija Banić (Matijanić):** Josip’s maternal grandfather, who plays a significant role in the early parts of the novel. He is a devout Catholic and a respected figure in the Bosnian town of V. Matija Banić is portrayed as a loving and caring grandfather who has a profound influence on young Josip.
2. **Stjepan Jablanović:** Josip’s father, a complex character with a mysterious past. He carries the weight of historical events and personal experiences, making him a central figure in the novel. Stjepan’s character is explored in-depth, revealing layers of complexity and the impact of war on his life.
3. **Josip Jablanović (Josip Jablanović V.):** The protagonist and the heir of memories, Josip serves as a bridge between the past and the present. As he delves into the family’s history, he grapples with his identity and the legacy of the past. The novel follows his journey of self-discovery and understanding.
4. **Ivan Jablanović:** Josip’s son, who appears in the later parts of the novel. His role and significance in the family dynamic and the broader narrative contribute to the multi-generational aspect of the family chronicle.
The family chronicle explores the impact of historical events, such as war and displacement, on individual lives and family ties. Through the lens of the Jablanović and Matijanić families, the novel weaves a complex narrative that intertwines personal stories with the broader context of Bosnian, Croatian, and Yugoslav history.
The novel is characterized by its exploration of identity, memory, and the intricate connections between generations. The author, Ivan Lovrenović, employs a rich and evocative writing style to bring the characters and their experiences to life, creating a compelling narrative that spans the tumultuous 20th century.